We Get Comments
Everyone who’s ever had a blog likes to get comments. I mean, if you didn’t get comments, well, things would be a bit boring, right? We, a couple days ago, I posted about the TX Polygamy raids. Gwen had a rather long, detailed comment and I wanted to respond. But my response was going to be rather long, so I decided to put it here in a main post. All quoted sections in this post are the commenter’s words:
In regards to the use of the APC and being well prepared with men and ammunition, there is a fairly easy response. After what happened at Waco, authorities wanted to be prepared for all eventualities. This is a walled compound and they had no idea of the reception they would receive and so they were prepared for all eventualities. Authorities have the right to protect themselves too.
Gwen? Do you have ANY clue what actually happened at Waco? That’s when the government went in an murdered dozens of people who never fired a shot. It’s quite easy to “avoid” another Waco — don’t send armed government agents to attack people on private property. In addition, these people CLEARLY knew what they were getting into. The police knew what sort of “resistance” was going to be faced — the same they ALWAYS face with LDS — none. It was wrong and overkill.
These people were not ‘invaded’.
Yes they were. If you don’t accept that concept, you don’t accept the concept of private property and you cannot accept any concepts related to freedom. There was zero evidence of any breaking of laws except one phone call that was FAKE.
all they did was protect children.
Utterly insane. Using that definition, the police need to take ALL children from ALL parents because someone MIGHT do something wrong. And what about the children who are getting pregnant OUTSIDE the compound? Why aren’t they removed from their parents? If the “protection” here was against underage children getting pregnant, I think the TX police have A LOT more people that need to be “protected” — again, including everyone who goes to Planned Parenthood.
These people are being ’singled out’ as you put it, because this isn’t a girl going out and doing something stupid. This is girls being brainwashed and forced to break the law and essentially being sexually abused by men who are decades older then them. And the boys are being taught that this is okay.
“Brainwashed?” Have you been to a government school lately? With the definition of “brainwashed,” we cannot teach any child anything about, well, anything. And then every single religion in the world, including Islam and Global Warming, is “brainwashing” people and they all should be stopped. It is NOT the business of government to determine right and wrong — government is wholly incapable of doing that and they should not be doing that. What is it about the magic age of 18 that makes a girl perfectly okay to make all decisions for themselves? Can you tell me who is harmed when a 16-year old gets pregnant and then raises the child in a caring, loving home with a father?
This is not a healthy environment for kids. Try reading “Escape” by Carolyn Jessop, someone who left the FLDS community and describes exactly what goes on there.
I’m not defending the LDS. I have some friends who are LDS (sounds like I’m calling them ADD), and I know a bit about that church. In general, I think their religious beliefs are nuttier than a fruitcake. But I believe in freedom most of all. I believe people should be free to have their religion. And in a religion that’s not harming outsiders, I cannot see any right for the government to go in and stop them. It’s completely and totally wrong. What are you going to do when government decides that YOUR environment isn’t healthy for kids simply because they say so? These people were living in peace and not harming anyone. They absolutely, completely, should have been left alone. What the government is doing is causing A LOT more harm to these children than the LDS ever could have. Government has far overstepped it’s bounds, and it IS destroying people simply because of their religious beliefs, and that’s just wrong.
It also does not matter that the initial phone call was false.
That’s the worst, scariest part of the entire comment. Do you even realize what you’re saying there? You’re clearly saying that the fourth amendment to the US Constitution doesn’t exist. You’re saying that government can, at any time, and for literally any reason, invade anyone’s property and do what they want. If government wants to investigate someone and search their underwear drawer, they can, even if there’s no evidence. No, what government in a free society would need is concrete evidence and eyewitnesses who will stand up in court and face their accusers. Anonymous tips are absolutely horrible. If someone will not stand up in court and say that they saw something — and will face punishment if they lie — there should be NO government involvement at all.
Don’t let your apparent dislike for the LDS color your opinion. Again, if this were a free society, people would not be attacked, invaded, and arrested for their religion. Families would not be destroyed and hundreds of lives crushed by government because of religion. But that’s in a free country, not what we have in America today.
Popularity: 42% [?]
Possibly similar posts - On TX Polygamy Raids - Evidence? What Evidence? We Don’t Need No Stinkin’ Evidence! - Government Religion - Latest on the “Polygamist Sect” - Rights In America
Ogre, I’m sorry that again (though it is rare) I disagree with you. When the police receive a child’s call saying she was being physically and sexually abused, they need to act. Insofar as FLDS & LDS, there is no relationship between the two.
The police raided a pedophile factory, bottom line!
I don’t have a problem with that — *IF* there is a legitimate call. And I don’t mean this anonymous crap, either. I want someone who will show up, in person, at the police station and swear to a judge that they’ve witnessed a crime. If the “informant” is afraid to show their face, their testimony is worthless.
And in this case, the call appears to have been completely made up!
They did not know that at the time. It has taken investigation to learn where the call came from, plus the cops knew what was going on for many years. The call, whether bogus or true, was their “in”, and they took it.
I still maintain, this was a pedophile factory and needed to be shut down!
Hmmm. So this is an NC blog, but where in NC? I’m in Raleigh. Holla!
I think the entire concept of “probable cause” without any credible, present, willing to appear in court eyewitness is garbage. Then again, that is what the entire Child Welfare Industry is built upon.
Thanks for stopping by, Ginny! I’m near Charlotte myself. Not IN it, mind you, I escaped that socialist city and county years ago for political reasons.
I see and understand both sides to this. I’m not sure if there is a right or wrong answer to it though.
Having spent a lot of time out in Utah once in my life, I can say I have no direct proof of it all…I did know many 9, 10, 11 yr old girls who were pregnant and who escaped the compounds and ended up in the city. The stories THOSE girls told were not at all innocent and full of love and care. Beatings were normal when sex was denied or pleas for mercy were made. Moms sat by as they watched their young daughters be de-virginzed (as it was called) by one of compound leaders. The girls were as young as 8 and were prepped for these rights of passage as they are called…
The girls were indoctrinated into a life of constant baby making and birthing; the concept of marriage as we know it doesn’t exist; girls and women are expected to share their bodies with any man who wishes to have it. Mothers are expected to witness the sexual acts each and every time.
Right or wrong- I am very positive this still happens and is still the rule of the sect. In many ways they do remind me of Islam. The girls are not educated- no schooling. They’re taught to speak the language of the sect and basic reading, writing and math skills are unknown to them. Is this bad? ou decide. I guess, if they face of life of not needing those skills it is ok.
The law enforcement people surely know of these stories as I did. These sects have a history of using their religion as a means and excuse and permission to do these things. Yes, the compounds were always defenseless and this was by choice. Most of them have been closed down and run out by the Mormons who reject the YFZ sect- which is alive and well from what I hear.
When LE knows the history of these sects, and they do by virtue of their education in their chosen career, they have an obligation to use this knowledge when faced with reports and charges and accusations. Yes- probable cause should be absolute and in ones face, but it’s not always possible. To do nothing would be absolutely wrong.
Personally I believe it is horrible to put the girls through the things they go through. I think it’s evil and wrong to force sexual favors from them, from the hand of any man who choses to like her for the moment. I call it rape. Other don’t because the girls don’t always fight back. Yet they have little choice in the matter, which should always be their choice.
Birth control is never an option.
When we have a large group of people doing these things, as a matter of everyday life and not the once -in-awhile teenage girl who gets herself pregnant because she is stupid, SOMEONE has to stand up to it. When we have 40 and 50 yr old men taking advantage of 9 or 10 yr olds for sex, we have a problem. We have a problem when we condone this behavior too…or excuse it. I cannot understand how the mothers can just sit back and watch- but then again they’ve been indoctrinated into this life and think it’s perfectly ok and normal.
It is not. Under any circumstance.
The rest of the post here, whether LE should use force or other means to remove the kids, is up for debate. I don’t think the government should step in without damn good cause and I also know these causes are oftentimes overblown and exaggerated. In this case, I’m not sure…i’ve read the articles about the horrible situations some of the kids claim to have lived through- including boys I understand.
If we don’t want LE stepping in, then who shall do it?
Me? you? God? That’s not good enough in my opinion. It does nothing for the kids, and in some cases, it is about them.
Sorry for the LONG comment Ogre, LOL, somethings just can’t be expressed in shorter versions.
Of course I do realize, too , that for some people these activities within the sect should be private and of no one’s concern. Even the worst stuff to me, may not be BAD to the girls within that place. Much of this comes from our own thoughts and feelings on it all. I have, I think, the advantage of knowing how some of those activities were and how very awful it can be. Totally detrimental to the confidence and self respect a girl should have from an early age…most of these things are. I was very sheltered from the real world too and never finished my education for yrs as well…you live what you learn so they say- and you live HOW you learned. The worst part of it all was the inability to love. It took yrs and yrs for that to happen, and then the trust. That took longer.
No, I appreciate the comment, Raven, I do.
But here’s one for you –
In Texas, the very state where this happened, the courts recently ruled that any sexual activity that happens behind closed doors (gay anal sex) cannot be acted upon by law enforcement, EVEN IF IT’S ILLEGAL.
Go ahead and explain how there’s not a conflict here.
Again, I’m not defending the actions of the people in this case — I’m trying to defend private property rights that don’t seem to exist any more. And again, as “bad” as SOME of these girls had it, I would suggest that government’s intervention has made their lives much, much worse.
Government should not step behind bedroom doors period when it’s two consenting adults. Gay, lesbian, animal (uh…guess theres no adult there though)…you get my point. Government should not step in when there is any sexual activity going on within the bounds of private property- even wild orgies are none of their business.
When children are involved though, and they often are by virtue of their age and innocence, I do think SOMEONE has to step in. I don’t care if the adults aren’t charged so much as I just want the kids taken away from this exploitation. If I could do this, I would. And I know most people would as well. But, we would be in trouble for that, if not shot and killed. I would risk my life actually, to save a young girl from having to go through that crap.
It’s a tough call to make. Let the few suffer (and yeah they always do in these situations) or remove them all to keep them all from becoming victims.
I feel bad for the kids in this case cause now they are going to face culture shock which I can attest is very hard. It is a shock. I remember walking away from that life and wondering at the marvels of color TV, faster airplanes and telephones that weren’t directly attached by the curly wire to the phone set, LOL. The other problem I had was I learning to TONE IT ALL DOWN twenty notches. The kids here will have to learn to tone it up that many. Every aspect of your life is literally turned upside down. They will have it much worse as they no nothing of TV, movies, music, MTV, sex, drugs and rock and roll. Food, bathrooms, clothes…it’s all gonna hit them very hard.
But it can be survived as I prove just by being here.
It’s not easy at all. And the effects of not having their Moms could and will be really bad. I hope they can work it out so they can be together but I doubt it at this point. The Moms will have to make some choice I suspect.
I think this really is little more than a few government agents deciding that they didn’t like someone, so they destroyed them — violating the Constitution various times in the process. Anyone who supports the government action in this case cannot complain when the government decides they don’t like what YOU’RE doing and they come into your house and destroy your family.
The kids will live a horrible life: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=62505
True enough. Either way it sucks and I really wish people didn’t do things to place their families in these situations. Not knowing the exact details of the current YFZ case but knowing of some from the past, the kids suffer the most in either situation. Living peacefully and frolicking among the fields is cute sounding and insightful…but until the details are known I wonder if we’re jumping the gun a little.
And then it’s too late for these families anyway if no harm has been really done. Had they all stayed on their own and outside of the compound they would have better luck, I think. Being in that community drew attention that may or may not be warranted. If it were me the lesson I would take from this is to not live in those places…practice my beliefs but in my own private home. And not harm the kids for my own benefit that’s for sure.
The lesson I take from this is that you need to hide from the authorities. And if there’s rumor they may visit you, you should run and flee.
But as the article mentions, when you hear the terms “For the good of the children,” run as fast and as far as you can.
Ogre read this…
http://apnews.myway.com//article/20080425/D9095CA81.html
A battle is brewing for sure and it appears the ACLU will be in on this. Ironically. But I’m beginning to SEE where you’re coming from now with this case. It takes me awhile sometimes….***sigh*** LOL
I can’t believe the ACLU is getting in on this. But they’re dead right — just because some may have broken the law, that’s no reason for the police to come take every single person’s child from them and then destroy them — which is exactly what the government has done. Worse, no matter what happens, the government has already gotten away with it, and nothing will stop them.
Even if the ACLU sues and wins a giant judgment, the people who did this (government agents) will not pay a dime nor suffer one moment for their gross violations of the Constitution.
Hi guys… my take on it since I first saw the story break… legally it will never stand up in court. I think the “execution” of the whole thing was wrong. What ever happened to doing a valid investigation before rushing in armed and taking children away from the only families they know. They should have went in and interviewed and investigated… you know send in “non-threatening professionals” to determine if the laws of the nation are being broken before acting “as if”. They bypassed investigation and evidence gathering and went straight to the Gestapo tactics. Ogre is correct, every time this sort of action is allowed without proper process being followed, it means we are getting closer to the Government being able to seize our children for whatever reason they deem necessary. Our personal freedoms are not assured when this sort of thing is allowed to happen. I think this church is a cult, I believe that there is wrong doing going on, and if they followed proper process and investigated, they would probably find a good case, but they did not do that and I think it will be tossed out in court. At least the part of me that respects freedom hopes that is the case. These children need to be protected, but they need to be protected the right way in a free nation.
Thing is — it’s already too late. It seriously doesn’t matter if it doesn’t hold up in court. It’s over — the children have already been taken from their families. They will NEVER see their families again, I’d bet on it. It doesn’t matter what the courts say or do now. Child Destructive Services have the kids, and they DO NOT give children back.
I deliberately waiting before commenting on this story because I wanted to see the details. I kept waiting for something to come forward. The only thing I see is gross government violations of the Constitution and the only argument I see is that the ends justify the means.
Yeah, me too Ogre. We just keep getting closer and closer to a socialist Utopia. I kept hoping logic and reasoning would win out… then I remembered, it’s the Government storm troopers.
Logic is not permitted in government today. Seriously. I often deal with high school graduates (of government schools). The basic concepts of logic are completely foreign to them. When I try and explain a simple truth table where it’s True or False, they honestly don’t understand the concept AT ALL. No, in government and society today, there is nothing absolute, everything is determined by government fiat.
I agree with you, Ogre. Any time the government steps in to fix a problem they exacerbate it.
I am curious though, where would you draw the line where freedom of religion goes too far? Breaking the law, I suppose. I have often wondered if one could legally justify crimes by claiming them to be part of your religion. I know that a pastor is allowed to withhold Social Security payments if his religious beliefs contradict it.
There are religions now that are justifying crimes by claiming to be part of their religion. And I think the Constitutional religious standard is even higher. In order to violate all the parts of the Constitution the government did here, they need clear evidence of serious crimes — with eyewitnesses. And the crimes need to be serious — not just people deciding their children can marry at 14 — that is NOT a crime. In fact, in most states, that’s legal.
[...] mentioned before how screwed up the government is, and how bad they have acted in crushing freedom and rights in the [...]