Vox Day: Home Run
I’m glad I’m not the only one who realizes the actual state of the government (public) education today. Vox Day really gets it. He really hits the home run on this one. Go read the article (it’s a short one). He’s right there with me on what I’ve been saying about government schools for years: they are beyond hope. They simply cannot be fixed. They have NO redeeming value. And worse, they have nothing to do with educating anyone.
Government schools are successful — at what they do. Just realize they are NOT interested in educating children. They’re a jobs program at best; indoctrination centers at worst. The only logical solution to the system is to end it. Get your children away from the poisonous atmosphere. Get out while you still can — because some judges now have decided that you’re not allowed to leave the system.
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Ogre have you read Von Hayek? I think his primary concern, as I believe yours is, is freedom above all else, or at least what he perceives to be freedom.
That name doesn’t ring a bell…
won nobel prize in economics. He basically thinks like you do, in that he is opposed to government interference of any kind. Also that any redistribution of wealth is basically amounts to stealing. His wikipedia should cover it.
Oh yes, Road to Serfdom — indeed, I do agree with much of his philosophies.
Well the way I see it is that Von Hayek does not care about the economy at all, and that his ecnomic policies are a symptom of his desire for all encompassing freedom. Especially when he concedes that the free market is often unfair and can reward luck as much as it does hard work. This is where I believe he is flawed. I believe, and this is also where you and I differ, that to better improve the quality of life of society as a whole, it is necessary to reinvest in the economy with responsible taxation, especially in education. In this way we provide ourselves with a talented and competent work force, as well as infrastructure. Indeed, I believe that education is our most important investment. Though the system may be flawed, working to improve it is far better than eliminating it.
Yeah, I can’t go along with your ideas because then you have to have someone determine what is “good” and what is “not good” in the marketplace.
As for relating that to education, realize I do not oppose education in any way, shape, or form. I work in education. I think education is one of the most important things we can do in this country — but the government system has ZERO interest in education. Do you really believe that students who have a high school diploma know ANYTHING? I know they’re not taught simple math or English. I know they’re “taught” that morals are bad and Muslim is good.
No, the current government education system has zero redeeming value to it. It cannot be fixed. I’m all for private education. I’m even for government education if we scrap the entire current Prussian system and start over. I LOVE education — which is why I despite the government “education” system.
ty Ogre..from someone who went exclusively to private schools, I cant even imagine how pple send their kids to public skools…unless they want them brainwashed or shot!
Or, as shown in California, not allowed to be Christian or have morals!
With all due respect angel, I think that you may not be as qualified to judge public schools if you have never attended one. I would never impune private schools, I think they are fine options. However, I know for a fact and from personal experience that there is value in public schools. There are teachers who inspire and students who are dedicated and may not have been able to afford a private education. I also believe that eliminating government education would infringe on people’s right to pursue happiness. Also, I was allowed to be Catholic, I have morals, and to my knowledge I was never brainwashed or shot.
Sorry, Brian, but that’s completely wrong. I’ve never murdered anyone, but I’m pretty sure I’m qualified to judge that it’s wrong. One does not have to participate in something bad to know it’s bad.
You may have allowed to have been Catholic — but you are not attending government schools in California today where you are absolutely NOT. If you have morals, it is in spite of the government education system — you successfully resisted the system.
In addition, keep in mind that the government education system of today is different than it was just 10 years ago. And I would suggest you were brainwashed — because you think government schools have value. I cannot find one thing that the government schools today actually teach children. They don’t learn to read or write there. They don’t learn math. Most high school graduates today cannot do long division or find most states on a map.
As for the “right” to pursue happiness, again, I would suggest you have been quite brainwashed — one absolutely cannot have a “RIGHT” to anything that requires something of someone else. If you have a right to force someone to teach you, that’s your right to own slaves. Sorry, but I don’t believe that’s a right.
At the end of the day, I feel that education is protected in the constitution. In some cases it is not possible for students to attend private school or be home schooled and though the system may be broken, it still adds value to our country and can be turned around. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.
I think that’s a large difference in politics today. For example, you read in the Constitution that people have a right to have other people work for them (education provided by government). I, for the life of me, cannot find that anywhere. I think that’s a huge divide, one not to be glossed over.
Pursuit of something does not mean that you are automatically allowed to get it.
Seriously — if you, individually, personally, have a right to have someone teach you, according to the Constitution, what rights does that person have that is doing the teaching? What if they don’t want to teach you? What if no one wants to teach you? If you have the right to be taught, then government is required to find someone and force them to teach you. That’s why I really cannot see where and how you can read the right to be provided and education in the Constitution.
I am curious — what value to you attribute to the current government education system? Seriously. I honestly believe that if it all disappeared overnight, we would be MUCH better off.
And again, this comes from someone who strongly supports education. I’ve raised money so kids could go to non-public schools. I’ve tried to build and start up schools (and have been stopped by government because with a Master’s Degree, I wasn’t “qualified” to teach or administer a school). I have supported trade schools and worked to ensure students who didn’t want a diploma obtained skills that they could use.
it all disappears overnight and millions of children who cannot afford a private education are forced to accept their fate. If they would like to be a plumber or an electrician, thats great! But at least now they have a choice. If you cannot see the value in it then I’m sorry but you are blind. All you see is the negative. Drive to the local high school tomorrow and call an assembly. Tell all the students that their school is worthless and they have been wasting their time and the school will be shut down. If they want to go to college and improve their station in life they are going to have to come up with a Quarter of a million dollars and fast.
And while your at it, tonight your UNC tar heels are playing Florida State. Drive up to chapel hill and right before tip off grab a mike and tell the students and the athletes that they have been basically stealing your money for years and now there is no more UNC. Athletes, students, and fans can all screw cause they add no value to society.
Does this honestly sound like a good idea to you?
Well, it would certainly be factual. Of course the students would be mad — because no one wants to hear that anything they’ve spend years on is worthless — even if it really is.
And believe me — if the government education system shut down today, the only kids who wouldn’t get an education are those whose parents didn’t want them to. Personally, I’d start a new school overnight. And it wouldn’t be for rich kids, either. I know a LOT of people who would do the same. How do I know this will work? Because people were educated LONG before the government ever tried to do it.
To suggest kids need millions to go to college is insane. There are literally thousands of organizations that give away billions of dollars (not including the government) so kids can get educations.
So you think its a good idea. I’d say go for it then. They are playing at 8 tonight. “Hey kids Im really sick of paying for all this garbage and your not learning anything anyways so lets just stop all of this nonsense right now. It may not be the best thing for you guys because your all happy here but it is certainly the best thing for me. That professor you love, he is an idiot. That paper you wrote last semester, drivel.”
Ok some quick math in my head here but if millions of students already draw money from those organizations and there may not be enough to go around if everybody now needs money.
And first of all I said a “quarter of a million” dollars and I was being generous. If a kid in the sixth grade now needs 6 years of private education plus 4 years of private college we are easily approaching 250,000.
I just can help but see your argument as incredibly cynical and selfish. This wouldnt be the best thing for the students of Chapel Hill, it would be the best thing for YOU. In your own mind anyways.
I
Selfish? Wow. You really don’t get this. Do you realize why college is expensive? Primarily because government subsidizes it. When, in North Carolina, government decides to give all students $1,000 in student “aid,” the cost of college goes up by exactly $1,000. If government weren’t providing that money, the costs would drop drastically.
And ending the government education system would help me — and it would even more help every single student trapped in that horrible system. Have you seen the classes that are offered at these institutions?
Know what? There were institutes of higher learning before there were government institutions — and they produced brilliant minds. I would suggest the value of a high school diploma is nothing. I would further suggest that the value of a college degree is marginally more than nothing. Students do not learn about reality. They don’t learn about how to function in the world. And except for the hard sciences, they don’t learn a skill that will help them get a job (unless you count the education system that trains people for their jobs program).
I hesitate to admit this because I am sure you will simply dismiss my argument as well as my credibility but I am currently a senior at a private university. I attended a State university before transferring to where I am now and all public schools prior to that. I sit here and argue with you because I know for a fact that you are wrong. I know for a fact the benefit and value I received at state school. It is obvious that your mind will never be changed, how long ago was it that you sat in a class room? But please don’t pretend that shutting down schools would benefit students. This is about you and your objection to government. And please don’t respond by saying students aren’t allowed to have morals in school, because when you make outlandish blanket statements like that you do a disservice to your own argument.
How long was it since I sat in a classroom? About 5 minutes ago.
The government education system is not designed to teach. In fact, the vast majority of students that graduate from the system honestly do not even understand the concept of learning. They don’t know how to learn because they’ve never been taught.
And just because you don’t like it doesn’t make it true — students cannot have certain morals in school. If you go to any government institution and say that gay is wrong, you WILL be thrown out of the school. You’re not allowed to have that position in a government school, period.
If you honestly want to know the purpose of government schools, go read this:
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/toc1.htm
It’s a very long read — but very detailed with many facts and direct quotes from people who built this current system.
That is just untrue. Are you allowed to feel like homosexuality is immoral: yes. Are you allowed to scribble faggot on lockers or emotionally and physically abuse somebody because they make you uncomfortable: no. This is a seperate argument of course. Am I immoral because I believe in evolution? Am I immoral because I dont think there is anything wrong with being gay?
You will be thrown out of the government school if you simply say the words, “Gay is wrong.” That’s enough to get you suspended and in some places jailed. So if you have morals that include opinions on gays being wrong, you are not allowed in school.
I’d say we’ve strayed pretty far off topic here, which I believe was whether or not public schools add value to society. You say they do not, I say they do. I think we shall have to leave it at that. Enjoyed the argument though.
Indeed, it was quite civil, unlike many arguments about support of government programs. Thanks for the discussion.
[...] Schools, continues to attempt to punish those who are responsible. My friend Brian and I have had recent discussions about whether the current government (public) school system has any value. This incident gives more [...]