ACLU Stops Bibles in Schools
Hey look, more evidence that shows government should completely get out of the education business entirely:
Gideons Keep Out of North Carolina’s Elementary Schools!
A North Carolina school district is putting an end to the donations of Bibles to elementary school kids.
The Cumberland County school system says state law limits the practice strictly to high schools and has issued instructions banning it at 54 elementary schools in the metro Fayetteville area.
The move comes after a parent complained about the stack of Bibles left in her son’s classroom earlier this month. The same parent filed a complaint with the American Civil Liberties Union.
The Fayetteville Observer said that while a 1998 court decision allows outside groups to make Bibles available to high school students, the ACLU contends it doesn’t apply to elementary kids who might see the practice as promoting Christianity over other religions.
The Bibles came from the Gideons, the group best known for supplying Bibles to hotel rooms.
Gideons be warned. The ACLU are likely to jail you if you try to share the gospel to kids. What? You thought the Constitution protected freedom of religion? Not according to the ACLU’s version. Maybe you should try pro-Palestian, or pro-Communist propaganda. Or maybe install some footbaths to accomadate Muslims. The ACLU seem to think these are protected speech.
The ACLU have a long history of going after the Gideons, but talk about splitting hairs. I thought their argument was based on public schools being government funded. Whats the difference between Elementary and High Schools on that basis? A biased loophole is all. Once again the ACLU lives up to its reputation as America’s number one religious censor.
Conservative Belle:
I wonder if parents of an elementary school student in NC could sue the state now and claim there is age discrimination by only allowing Bibles for teenagers. They seemed to be the ones now discriminated against. The ACLU is once again picking and choosing their ridiculous battles.
Lobo emails this article on it as well and says:
“The ACLU also argued that the case did not support Bible distribution in elementary schools. >>>Those students are impressionable<<< and would likely think that the school was promoting the Bible by making it available, said Katherine Lewis Parker, the legal director for the ACLU of North Carolina.”
Is the ACLU admitting that students are “impessionable” when it comes to the Bible but NOT when it involves teaching and advocating Islam in our schools? Or homosexuality? etc.
A North Carolina school district is putting an end to the donations of Bibles to elementary school kids.
The Cumberland County school system says state law limits the practice strictly to high schools and has issued instructions banning it at 54 elementary schools in the metro Fayetteville area.
The move comes after a parent complained about the stack of Bibles left in her son’s classroom earlier this month. The same parent filed a complaint with the American Civil Liberties Union.
The Fayetteville Observer said that while a 1998 court decision allows outside groups to make Bibles available to high school students, the ACLU contends it doesn’t apply to elementary kids who might see the practice as promoting Christianity over other religions.
The Bibles came from the Gideons, the group best known for supplying Bibles to hotel rooms.
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So I assume this blog and/or the Gideons would also support a Muslim organization placing the Quran in our elementary schools or a Wiccan organization placing the Book of Shadows in them as well. After all, the same laws apply to all religions, not just Christianity. Right???
Perhaps you missed the first line:
“Hey look, more evidence that shows government should completely get out of the education business entirely:”
You are Right-on Ogre. And Merlin, just let me know when you can demonstrate that there were Muslims and Wiccan’s present when the Constitution was written and that they were present in the Continential Army and died on the battle field to secure this Nation. We are a nation where the majority here are Christian. I have no problem with making the books of other religions available in school libraries too, but I resent people trying to rewrite history or block only the tennants of Christianity from view in the name of being politically correct. It is because so many brave souls crossed a vast ocean, in wooden ships to colonize this country and to seek religious freedom in the first place, that people are (or used to be) “free to worship as they choose”, even if it is the devil himself. And yes, I would fight someone just as hard if they were denying one’s ability to research any religion or trying to keep people from having access to any book or information.
One should research those that fought and died in the Continental Army. Neither Washington nor Jefferson ever claimed to be Christian. Both claimed to be Deist and both published papers warning of government support for any one religion over another. Jefferson was at the forefront of dispelling any belief that our Constitution was ever meant to represent Christian views. Additionally, no where in our Constitution does the word “Christ” or “Christian” appear. I am truly sorry if this offends anyone, but please do your reseach before publishing your tyrides for others to realize your ignorance of history. Please read Jefferson’s letter to the Church of Danbury.
My only point is that religion should be taught at Church and secular education at our schools. Should the Church operate a private school, so let them teach all the religion they want, but please don’t force the masses to recognize one religion with preference over another with our tax dollars.
Since you said “please,” then everyone will do what you ask? Okay, PLEASE don’t take my tax dollars to pay for an education system that is crap and doesn’t work.
Well Merlin, it seems you misunderstood what I said. My point is… this Nation was founded by a predominatly Christian people. Even a Diest believes in a higher power, they just don’t believe that any one church or religious book is chosen or inspired by God. To get to the point, in my humble opinion, there is a minority in our society that like to put Christianity under attack, and I personally being a Christian myself, get sick of it. I have no problem with people expressing their faith even a belief in no faith at all.
Many good men have fought and died over the years to keep that freedom for everyone and from what I have been seeing, there are those who want to destroy the rights and freedom of others. And as I said before, and to quote Voltaire, “I may not agree with what you say, but I’ll die for your right to say it.” The same goes for a people’s right to knowledge about anything, including access to books of faith. People originally poured into this country from England to escape religious persecution when the only faith tolarated there was the Church of England in that time frame. Our founding fathers, for the most part, were offspring of those who came here from Europe, to join the colonization. I never said that the words “Christ or Christian” appear in the Constitution.
I was just taken back by the implication that because Ogre considered the forced removal of Bibles from Government schools to be yet another attack on freedom and another reason to not want your children to go to government schools, you assume that he would not want to see other books about different faiths in schools. Everyone should be free to learn about other ideas besides their own. And I agree with you, religion should be kept out of school, tax dollars should not go to churches… but I also agree with Ogre that schools are doing a horrible job and government shouldn’t be in the education business. They turn everything into a highly bureaucratic, red tape nightmare.
I am familiar with the Danbury Letter and also with the fact James Madison also referenced the same thing in some of his writings as well, “total separation of the church from the state.” Madison also declared, “a practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government is essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States.” I simply do not believe that pulling Christian reference from everything in America is a way to promote “freedom of expression”.
Nice answer. I’d add to your “no tax dollars for churches” — “no tax dollars for government education.” But I’m just dreaming of a place where people are free.
HoosierArmyMom and Ogre, I concur. Well written response and I did in fact misunderstand your first response, as I believe you have mine as well. I am in support of no denomination over any other, but of equal access should one be offered opportunities that others are not. I believe that no religious materials should be present in our public schools, but if allowed, then all religions should have equal access. I am not attacking Christianity. Therefore I support the efforts of the ACLU. Personally, I am agnostic or as some say “Deist”. I am tired of have Christian agendas forced upon me from multiple directions. This includes the Gideon bible present in my hotel room to school clubs in the name of FCA (fellowship of christian athletes). Let us not forget the torture and death of many innocent victims at the hands of the Christian Inquisitors before the creation of our great country. Is this not the fear that led to our establishment as a country with “freedom of religion”? The established Christian Church is once again trying to force all peoples to convert. At this point, without violence, but for how long we do not know. I fear that one day soon, Christians will begin to take up arms just as the Muslim extremists are doing in the Middle East, in an attempt to spread there beliefs. To borrow from a well-known Christian Hymn, “..onward Christian soldiers, marching as to war…”. Am I the foe just because I choose to believe in God a different way than Christians. Please spare me the shackles and iron hot boot and for goodness sakes don’t burn me at the stake.
I feel your first response indicated that only Christians fought for the freedom’s of this country and implied that only Christians have the right to American Freedoms. It is a well documented fact that George Washington never accepted communion and when ridiculed by the Bishop of the church, chose to never attend church on communion day again. Does this sound like a true Christian? Thomas Jefferson was quoted as saying, “the day will come when the myth of Jesus Christ will pass just as the myth of Minerva and Zeus”. Please do not confuse the idealogies of “Freedom of Religion” with the “Freedom of Christianity”. Those who fought and died for this country and wrote the articles that created this Nation, never intended on creating a “Christian Nation” regardless of the percentage of the population that believed or believes in Jesus Christ. They did intend on separation of church in state as exclaimed the the Letter to the Danbury Church.
In response to re-writing history, Christians have been doing that since the beginning of America. It is a fact to anyone scholared in history that the Thanksgiving celebration we adore today was born of festive spirits and fellowship of men and natives, not a religious holiday. In fact, the pilgrim traditions of Thanksgiving was a quarterly ritual of all day prayer, not at all a 3 day eating feast with Native Americans. In addition, this country belonged to the Native Americans of which I proudly honor my own heritage traced in part to them. None of them were Christian until the invasion from Europe (as you put it, by predominantly Christians) and killed off virtually their entire race. I am proud of my Native American ancestory and I cannot say the same for my European Christian ancestory.
I don’t think you can compare Gideons’ Bibles in your hotel room to a school — you have a choice of leaving that hotel and going to another one, so no one is forcing anything on you. Today’s Christians don’t force anyone to believe their way (unlike Islam). But with education, that’s a captive audience who doesn’t have a choice. However, if government would stop making such a forced captive audience, then this would not be an issue at all — people could choose schools, education, and religion — if we were a free people.
Captive audience? I believe loading up your children at age 2 through 18, forcing them to attend church service, not educating them about other religions and making them fear the hand of God and hellfire and brimstone if they don’t accept Jesus Christ, be baptized and join the force to spread the gospel is just as captive as any classroom. If you cannot understand this concept, then you simply didn’t grow up in the NC community that I did. They had me so scared I accepted Jesus and joined the church before I knew there was anything other than Baptists, Presbyterians and Methodists. Oh yeah, and those pesky Jehovah Witnesses that simply have everything wrong.
I do completely agree with you that schools would be better off without the government being involved. However, parents can move their kids to other schools including private schools at their choice, just like switching hotels. I interpreted your original post as taking the position that the Gideons should be allowed to supply public schools with Bibles and didn’t make the connection that the primary purpose of the post was to abolish the public school system. Sorry for my confusion. I took the conversation on a wild tangent. My apologies.
“I believe loading up your children at age 2 through 18, forcing them to attend church service, not educating them about other religions and making them fear the hand of God and hellfire and brimstone if they don’t accept Jesus Christ, be baptized and join the force to spread the gospel is just as captive as any classroom.”
No, not one bit. Because people are FREE to choose to put their children in that audience, while if they do not put theirs in the government school, they will be shot, jailed, or killed. That’s a HUGE difference.
No problem on the confusion, I really think government schools are complete and total cesspools that cannot be fixed — in case I’ve not made that clear
My apologies too Merlin, you are a very thoughtful and intelligent man and I wasn’t extremely clear on my post either. You have reminded me of a lot too, as I had religion shoved down my throat when I was young, and understand exactly what you are saying. I reached a point in my life where I believed in God and loathed organized religion because I felt they used guilt to manipulate instead of doing things the way Jesus did. Jesus didn’t wear expensive clothes or shoes, and gave a message of hope and love. I reached the conclusion that one needed to develop a relationship that was one on one in order to develop a faith that did what it was supposed to do. I still cringe sometimes when I see religious people as opposed to spiritual people in action. There is a difference. I do feel everyone should have the opportunity to learn about all faiths, and even if you don’t personally agree, respect the other viewpoint and person. Removing books from institutions doesn’t exactly accomplish that, IMHO. I don’t honestly believe that Christians are the only ones guilty of pushing their viewpoint on the world, but even so, it is wrong whoever is doing it. But I do remember how horrifying it was to feel that the fire and brimstone people were going to start a lynching party at any moment for non-believers.
Merlin, I did not mean only Christian Americans deserve freedom, as we are a melting pot and have been almost from the beginning, but I do think if American’s want to maintain freedom, the “pushing out of one group’s traditions for the sake of political correctness” is wrong.
And I concede, you are right about Christians rewriting much of American history, and they even tried to destroy the traditions of Native Americans as well. And yes, I have a good deal of Native American blood in my viens as well and am quite proud of that fact. I do know that our military has been loaded with many brave men and women from different ethnicities and walks of life and appreciate that as well. I guess it is my humble opinion that all Americans deserve better than what the government running everything can do, if that makes sense.
Thank you for all the interesting and informative postings, as I have enjoyed reading them. I appreciate anyone who makes me think outside the box, and that’s why I like reading Ogre’s thoughts and ideas. I do love American history, but my biggest focus has been Civil War era history in the last several years. And no… you don’t want to get me going on states rights! LOL! But I thank you for being such an interesting poster. You have reminded me of many things I need to keep in mind.
States’ rights? You indeed live in the past. States have no rights today…
That’s exactly why the South should have won!
And Abe Lincoln was way more criminal than Dubya ever thought of being. He suspended “habeas corpus” and held many southerners in northern jails without their right to counsel, indefinately with no charges being made. Then he raised an army for for the expressed purpose of invading other Americans. If one reads the original documents, the South actually had the right to succeed. Lincoln really didn’t try to work proper diplomacy in his passion to “save the Union”, he tried to bully the South back. Nowadays, the American people would have impeached him and called for his resignation. It is my personal feeling we would all be better off to have more laws made on a state level and fewer made on the federal level. Only people living within a State can understand that state’s unique needs. The only role the federal government should have is to make sure the Constitution and Bill of Rights are adhered to. Now you can call me nuts if you like… but I have some seriously southern roots and have read a great deal on the subject over the years and feel that way about states rights. All states should have the right to self-determination and government. *grin*
But your view, today, is vastly in the minority. Those who live in Washington, D.C. honestly believe they know what is best for everyone on the planet. Abusing the commerce clause, they pass laws that apply to everyone, not caring what people or states want because they really do believe they know better. Unfortunately, that’s the reality of politics today.
Thank you Mr. Lincoln. We’d all be better off had the South won!
I think if the south had won that the south would now be an economic superpower while the north would be a falling apart socialist society.
The north is a falling apart socialist society. Steel industry…gone overseas. Automotive industry…gone overseas. Large numbers of their educated, middle/upper class citizens…gone South.
True — but with the help of the federal government, they’re dragging the rest of the country down with them.
Let’s not forget the weaving mills and part of the auto industry that went to Mexico, then last year the Engineering went to China! Next thing you know we will find out our cars have lead in them! lol!!! And you are right, No. Indiana isn’t nearly what it used to be as far as the Steel industry goes. It’s the rust belt these days. Oh if only they had listened to General Jackson after Battle of First Manassas (First Bull Run if one is of the Yankee persuasion).
And we’ll have to put labels on the cars to encourage people not to put them in their mouth and they might contain eggs.
WARNING: this car is not made of edible materials, may contain eggs, could have lead, and may fall apart while driving down the road for no reason whatsoever…. it could go on and on! I want the job of sitting around making up Warning labels for the government!! I could come up with some dandies!!! LOL!!!
I’m pretty sure that job is already taken — by about 50 different people.
Mostly Lawyers.
You are probably right on! That would be a job for anyone with experience sucking the life out of people and raining on parades coast to coast…. Lawyers.
I want to be a judge just so I can tell lawyers what to do. But recently North Carolina (Democrats) passed a law that you MUST be a lawyer to run for any elected judgeship position.
In one sense, it makes sense since lawyers make the laws so complicated the make job security in doing so… but I still think the legal jurisprudence in the USA could use an infusion of “common sense” and you for sure won’t find that in most of the lawyers who are willing to leave private practice to be a judge!
The legal system shouldn’t require lawyers — that’s the biggest problem with the legal system today. It wasn’t designed to require lawyers. Many of the founding fathers wrote about how it was supposed to be for the “everyman” to be able to use the system. How far we have come, however.
Who decided a law background is needed to run for office anyway??? I thought politics in this country was supposed to be for the “simple citizen” anyway.
That would be the Democrats, in North Carolina, anyway.
The Democrats here too. Almost all the state reps are lawyers. That’s why the state is such a mess I guess.
One thing about New Hampshire — the legislators are paid $100 a year. That’s it.
Compare that to North Carolina where NC Senate campaigns costs hundreds of thousands of dollars — and they get paid $30-$40K in salary, tons more in benefits, and even more by lobbyists!