Universal Health Care Truths
Gee, what a shock. Government in Hawaii JUST discovered that socialized, universal, government health care is a total and complete failure. The fools in government that set this up were somehow shocked that a number of people, when they found out government was offering coverage for FREE, suddenly stopped buying health care and enrolled in the free system.
It’s amazing that there are still such incredibly foolish people in government positions. I’ll say it again for those (like Obama and all his supporters) that don’t understand: when you offer something at no cost to the recipient, MORE PEOPLE WILL WANT IT. It really doesn’t matter what it is. If you open up a stall on the street and offer ANYTHING for free, people will show up and get as many as you will give them. It doesn’t matter if it’s gasoline, health care, jobs, or toothpicks. If it’s at zero cost, people WILL want more of it.
This is the primary reason that “universal” healthcare not only has failed every time it’s been tried, but it absolutely WILL continue to fail. In health care, there needs to be a cost to the user. If there isn’t, you get the nightmare that is healthcare in Canada — waiting times of years for minor problems because the demand is high. If you charge money for it, less people will use it, period.
This works with everything. Recently, there were gas shortages in the southeast and many gas stations in the Charlotte area ran out of gas. Want to know why? Nope, it had NOTHING to do with the hurricane. It was because of government. Governor Easley threatened to arrest and jail any gas station that raised their prices. Therefore, the price of gasoline was kept artificially low. People did what the always do when something is offered at a lower price than the market can bear — they bought as much as they could as often as they could. That caused the companies to run out of gasoline.
The free market will work — and it has worked every time it’s tried. At the same time, government regulated markets always fail — look at the banks and mortgage markets — those were all completely artificial markets, created by government and look how they turned out.
Oh, how I yearn for freedom!
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Give it enough time and we’ll be going to Canada for heart, kidney and lung transplants because we don’t have enough bedspace to do it.
Oh, we’ll have enough beds — but the government will not allow us to use them. That’s one of the worst parts of socialized medicine.
Obama isn’t proposing a UHC program. He’s realistic enough to realize that it doesn’t work. It doesn’t really work all that well in Canada either. What does work is a private-public system that is in Europe. France is rated for having the best health care in the world. And they have the closest system to ours, believe it or not. It mirrors the US system. The only difference is that for those who have pre-existing conditions that can’t afford health care, it is available as social security is available right now for the elderly.
The majority of Americans have health care. Those people won’t be effected. However, those who don’t have it, will be able to receive it at a lower cost and without having to worry about pre-existing conditions.
You’re missing the point of the post — the majority of Americans who have health care WILL stop paying for it when a “free” (or so-called “lower cost”) alternative is offered. And then it will be more expensive than government can provide.
Public-Private systems also a joke. Every single public-private “partnership” becomes nothing more than government selecting a winner from the free market that will provide services for government at any cost and at a lower level or service than what the free market would provide. Public private partnerships CRUSH freedom and innovation.
I am open to the possibility that I may be wrong, but just to pick your brains, what do you think about this information on the French health care system:
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Story?id=4647483&page=1
http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/April2008/24/c8981.html
http://superfrenchie.com/?p=1212
I think it’s slavery. Literally. When government gives money to someone, anyone, they can only do so by first taking the money by force from someone that earned it.
When people are happy with paying $7.50 for a medical service, they don’t consider the reality of it. It did NOT actually cost $7.50. Instead, it still cost hundreds of dollars to pay the doctors, nurses, hospitals, and for supplies. When government pays that, there’s two problems:
First, government sets the amount they will pay. It doesn’t matter what the doctor or nurse thinks their time is worth, they are forced (in many countries) to take a set amount, no matter what they think they are worth. If you can’t find enough nurses to work for that low amount, then government will pay more money to train more nurses — and they will get a much lower quality of nurse because they’re only doing it because they can’t do anything else.
Second, when government pays that difference, they again had to take that money from someone who actually worked and earned it. Keep in mind — government cannot create anything. Instead, every last dollar government spends was earned by someone else and taken by force. It’s wrong on many levels.
But aren’t we already somewhat socialists? We’ve got social security, disability, firemen, public schools, public school buses, etc. What do you think of the socialist platforms that we already have in place? Should we do away with them?
I used to live in Japan where they have nationalized medicine and I was very pleased with the service. NOt 100% of the time, though. People in Europe claim to find that nurses and doctors are nicer and helpful.
I have multiple medical problems. And the nastiest and most absent-minded, ignorant people I’ve ever met where those in the medical community. Not to place all medical professionals under the same umbrella, but others and I find it rare to find someone who knows their stuff and won’t treat you badly. Now, with common everyday issues like having a cold - that’s a different story. But if you’ve got a complex problem, things are difficult here.
I do work. And I pay taxes for other people’s care. But I want to pay taxes for other people’s care. Why? Because if I run into trouble, I want them to care for me. I find that system more civilized.
Naturally, too much of anything is bad. But don’t you agree something needs to be done about our system?
Yes. I disagree with all those socialist platforms. I honestly think they should all go away because I honestly like freedom.
Yes, seriously. I’ve written extensively here on this blog about all the honest GOOD that would come from completely and totally dismantling the entire government-run school system. Social security is a joke. Buses help the few at the expense of the many. I wish people could be free to earn money and choose what to do with their own earnings. And yes, I know I’m dreaming, but that IS what this country used to be.
I think you will find that all system are much better when they are free. Since you say that you would like to pay money that you earn for other people’s health, I think you should absolutely be free to do so. And if government didn’t take your earnings by force, you would have even MORE that you could give to such causes. At the same time, I don’t believe in forcing others to give to things they do not want, nor believe in.
I believe that you would find (and this theory is quite borne out throughout history) that if people are free, they WILL take care of one another. And the care will be much better than you can ever dream of getting from forced labor from the impersonal government.
Aaah… I see what you mean, but I just don’t trust my fellow man to come through for me if I can’t afford a surgery that will save my life or if I’m dependent on dialysis. I think we are a cut-throat dog-eat-dog society of jaded people who, for the most part, only think of themselves. Kind of a pessimistic way of thinking, isn’t it? But that’s how I see too many people. It’s taking a risk to wait for someone to come through for you or to even ask for help - which is very humiliating!!
I mean, even as our society exists today, there are many genuinely helpless people out there dying and rotting away from the system. Private charities are great, but they are either usually given oversees or to those who attend church regularly.
I fear that if all socialist programs were to die out, the quality of life for those making low wages will get even worse. You don’t have to be dying of cancer to call out a low quality of life. Sometimes it could just be someone who cannot afford their insulin that will get lost in the shuffle.
Medical care is expensive in the US because of the quality of the care. It is expensive in terms of both the capital equipment and the labor costs. For example, a new CAT scan machine is not only expensive to buy, but it actually increases the labor costs for the hospital that buys it. Staff needs to be trained to use it and once trained, commands a higher salary because of it.
See this post for more.
Doctors are the money makers of any hospital. Revenue = # of doctor visits per day x $ per doctor visit.
Hospitals have their per-visit costs capped by both regulation and insurance. In order to recover their costs, hospitals must increase the number of doctor visits per day. I have an optometrist friend who was recently scheduled to see 13 patients in one hour. She wants to quit.
See also: Atlas Shrugged.
Health care is a goods and service and an expensive one at that. It is not a right. It’s something you have to buy and when you buy it, you don’t by something else. France may or may not have great health care, but it certainly has a ghastly economy. Mammoth debts, hopelessly massive unfunded financial commitments, 10%+ unemployment, anemic growth (when it happens at all), the list goes on and on.
I’m not sure I want to emulate France.
virgomonkey, you have hit on one of the basic differences in belief between freedom and slavery.
As a proponent of freedom, I trust people. I believe in people. I honestly believe that if people are free, enough of them will do the right thing. I trust people to make their own decisions. I believe that free people will help and support others.
As a proponent of socialism, you don’t trust people. You believe that people, if left to be free, will only be selfish and kill one another. You believe that the only way to ensure that people do what YOU want is to put people in power over them and use force to make them do what you want.
I don’t believe it’s anyone’s job to determine what my, or anyone else’s “quality of life” should be. I think each person, in a free society, can determine that for themselves.
And yes, as KT Cat has pointed out, the main reason that costs for medicine in America are so expensive is NOT because of the free market, but is because of government regulations. For example, right now, I, personally, can examine someone’s eyesight and determine what glasses they need to see better. I have the knowledge, ability, and tools to determine a prescription that’s needed. However, if I actually do that for someone, the government will put me in jail. Oh, I can (and do) do it in other countries, I’m only not allowed to in the US. Perhaps the reason so many are suffering in America is because the government will not allow people like me to help them without paying tens of thousands of dollars to government to ask permission to help.
KT Cat, while I was living in Japan, I had root canal done. I got excellent care and service (the Japanese are updated with America). The cost for all three visits were about 40 dollars total. My aunt had root canal done in NY for 950.00. But even if here root canal had cost 400 dollars… that’s nothing like what I paid for good service in Japan.
The quality of health care is better in other developed countries compared to ours. We are told in the US to think the opposite and too many people buy it.
France may be in economic hard times, but the US is significantly worse. Even socialist Canada is doing better than the US economically.
If slavery was truly what other countries were experiencing, wouldn’t you think they’d be unhappy people?
I don’t think you would know if the people were unhappy. People are much inclined to suffer, rather than do anything about it. And misery loves company, so when one person sees other suffering, they can focus on the good. It IS slavery when one is forced to work for someone else, no matter who likes it or is happy about it.
And keep in mind, once again, the reason that your Japanese root canal was $40 was because of government interference — and likely large amounts of government cash — taken from someone by force. And the cost in NY? Primarily because of government interference!
And you are seriously the first person that I have ever heard, or read, or heard reported upon, that has EVER said that any other country’s medical systems were better than America’s. And there are precious few people that leave America to get medical treatments in other countries (except those treatments that our government declares illegal) and large numbers of people leaving their countries to get medical care in America.
And be sure — the only reason the US economy is suffering right now is 100% the fault of government, NOT the free market.
I think America’s system is excellent if you have minor problems. But I can judge Japan because I had a lot of treatment done over there. So, I have something to compare America to. I even got better treatment over there for just having a fever. In Japan, they just gave me a shot. The fever went away and I was able to return to work. In the US, you take aspirin and pray that it goes away fast. Even those “flu pills” take forever to kick in.
And then I hear testimony after testimony from those living abroad (in other 1st world countries) that they are happy with their care. Could they be lying?
People come to the US from Canada because they don’t have socialized health care. They have a single-payer system that is just as bad as America’s system. So, instead of waiting for 3 months to get an MRI, they come to the US to get it done within a week. If you have Cushings Disease, America’s the place to be, but our HMO’s don’t pay for those specialists who give the best treatment here.
I am in remission from Cushings disease right now, so I know many people who have it. My friend cannot get her brain surgery to cure the disease because she has to pay out of network for the specialists and the best neurosurgeons as they are few are far between here.
Some people from the US go to Germany, Japan, Mexico and other countries to get dental work and surgeries done.
You should read the articles I posted in my first reply.
I really think our government’s wanting to take away socialized services not because they care about our freedom but because they want it for themselves to play with. Look how our banks are partially nationalized, but the citizens are not. I honestly don’t think our government cares about the welfare of it’s citizens. And I know that you think caring in that regard is synonymous to slavery, but I find it more civilized.
I just ask myself - why are Americans complaining about health care, and those in other countries aren’t? You have to look at the complaint rate in all other developed countries.
Why are Americans complaining? Because the government won’t LET them do things. I did read the articles you posted, that’s where my replies were based upon.
The reason your friend cannot afford the brain surgery is because of government overregulation, plain and simple.
You are correct in that the government wants to take control of the medical system (and likely will under Obama) because they want power. They don’t care about people — governments are incapable of caring.
Caring is nice. Government is literally not capable of caring. PEOPLE can care, and they DO care. Government does not. That’s why the plan outlined at the start of this post — the healthcare in Hawaii that utterly failed — illustrates my point. When government does something, they do it by force — NOT because they care. The only way to get better health care is to get government out of the way and let people have freedom. Freedom is the only system that has worked every time it’s tried. Socialism, whether you call it nationalized, socialized, or “public-private partnerships” has failed every single time it’s been tried.
I just want to say that it is very refreshing to be able to debate with someone on the other side civilly. You have not once put me down for my beliefs or attacked me which is rare with these kinds of controversial topics.
I agree to disagree, but I do like your style of discussion.
Thanks, Orge. (You are so not an Orge, though.
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Thank you as well. Indeed it is refreshing to debate without name calling, isn’t it? And we actually found the root of our disagreement rather quickly, and there is not much that can be done for it, if you ask me.
I think our basic difference is our trust in people in general. And the strange thing is that I also believe that people are generally evil! To do good takes work. But at the same time I believe enough people, given freedom, will actually do good.
Thanks indeed for stopping by and for the discussion!